Planted refugium advice?
Fri, 04/02/2010 - 12:21
Hello all,
intermediate_noob and I originally started this conversation on another thread, but would be happy if others joined in.
What I would like to do: Lower my nitrates to zero using plants, and hence, cut down on my water changes.
The plan: I currently have a 60 gal hex tank with a green and a gold severum, a jack dempsey, a black convict, a ropefish, and an obnoxious but entertaining common pleco. It is filtered by one very large Marineland canister filter (sorry, don't know the model), and the tank is unplanted. They are outgrowing their tank so I purchased a 125 gal tank. I would like to do either one or both of the following:
-set up an in-tank refugium by just walling off an area with permeable grate and planting some plants
AND/OR
-set up an out-of-tank refugium, for which I know next to nothing about the plumbing and logistics required for this, other than the water has to get to the refugium and back without flooding the house. I have a vacant 15gal and 20gal tall that could serve as the refugium or sump(?).
I have a done a good deal of research into refugium plants, but then I read this depressing article:
http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biological_filtration.htm
It's well worth the read, but I'll summarize. Basically, most aquatic plants very preferentially use ammonia long before nitrate, so for all of us thinking that we'll have this happy little cycle of bacteria converting ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate, and then the plants utilizing the nitrate for growth, it may not be so. For it really to work, it seems you may have to pull your bio-wheels, bio-balls, and such so the plants can use the ammonia directly. This thought is very terrifying to me.
Thoughts, suggestions, refutations?
Greg
Fri, 04/02/2010 - 15:08
#2
Thanks for the advice. Both the 15 and 20 gal are tall tanks.
I totally agree with your thoughts on water changes. Even if my nitrates were zero I would still perform water changes knowing that there are quite a few other dissolved solids in there fouling the system. However, what I would like to get away from is the weekly 80% changes I'm doing on my severum tank.
I have tried floating plants before, which have turned out to be rather messy when trying to clean the tank, which I usually do every two weeks. It seems one is stuck with the either moving them around while vacuuming or taking them out of the tank and returning them later. I do like the idea of floating plants though; closer to the light = less light necessary. Also it circumvents the problem of having the plants uprooted by the fish. What I tried last night, rather unsuccessfully, was putting a shallow layer of substrate in the floating breeder I have and then 'planting' the plant in there. While good in concept, the breeder didn't have the buoyancy to hold all that up... If I could make that work it would be cool because it would be easy to remove and replace while cleaning, instead of corralling a bunch of loose floating plants, and I could basically turn any plant into a 'floating plant'. It may be somewhat unsightly in the tank though. I'm definitely looking for something easy and efficient, and not a show piece, so CO2 is out of the question (although I did find a neat site about making CO2 using water, yeast and sugar in a 2 liter Coke bottle). This project is more to help the fish and the water quality of my tank rather than a side hobby, of which the fish already take an enormous amount of time.
Thanks for the links. I have looked through a bunch of saltwater DIY refugiums and even found a site that sells the plants and macroalgae for them. Probably what I'll need the most help on is the plumbing. Most sites I have found assume that you know all about pumps, sumps, refugium, overflows, etc. While I can grasp the concept and the physics in a general manner in my mind, I need something basic to really break down what I need to do to avoid putting 60 gallons of water on the carpet, which would result in my girlfriend killing me.
For my smaller tanks I was even thinking of adding a hang on the back filter with the media stripped out of it and substituted with substrate, plants, and algae (saw a DIY like that on one site).
I'd like to hear about what plants have worked for people - the plants they found indestructible and workhorses when it came to removing organics. I can read plenty, and have, but it's always better to hear from regular people rather than read some expert's advice in a book, which may not work out in practice. A comment about your house plant suggestion - I've actually killed quite a few house plants using aquarium water to water them - it seems the plants are not as happy about salt as I am, not surprisingly. Apparently I initially overestimated a plant's tolerance of salt...even a little bit. I constantly read about people dumping this into their tanks and that into their tanks to solve Ich, algae, or whatever, but what has worked every time for me, especially for Ich, is water changes, cranking up the temperature, and increasing the salt concentration. I've also read that salt helps oxygen absorption by the gills and protects them from ammonia damage. My fish seem quite happy about it, but my house plants, not so much so. Also, I would like to eventually try the refugium idea on my 55gal brackish tank. In researching plants it seems that brackish plants will happily go fresh, but fresh water plants are not as versatile so I have been focusing on the brackish plants since all of my tanks have a healthy level of salt, even the 'fresh water' tanks.
Thanks again for your input. g-
Fri, 04/02/2010 - 22:01
#3
Greg,
I stopped putting salt in my tanks about two years ago so I do not run into that problem with the house plants. However, you bring up a good point regarding how the plants will adapt to those conditions. I personally have never researched plants found in brackish environments, but I am sure they exist. I have even seen a planted saltwater tank. It was probably the coolest tank I have seen in a long time.
Another option as an unconventional floater is Pennywort or Hydrocotyle leucocephala. Here is a picture looking down on it. http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/plants/StemPlants/images/Brazilian...
I have this stuff in a food clip suction cupped to the lid of my 125. It spreads out and offers a lot of shade and then grows roots from each of the plant nodes. I do not know if it really is pulling out a lot of nutrients, but it is better than not having any plants at all because of my severums uprooting them. Another option is this: http://ripariumsupply.com/index.html. I absolutely love the idea of one of these and have some plans in the works and most of the equipment, now it is just a matter of time to build it.
Anytime you have questions about sumps, plumbing and the like, just let me know and I will help out and provide my take with a grain of salt. I am by no means an expert, have spilled many a gallons water, but I do have some pretty good successes so I am not all bad 
Fri, 04/02/2010 - 22:48
#4
I like the idea of clipping the pennywort to the lid. I think I had some of this at one time. I forget how it 'performed'. As for brackish plants, I've acquired a whole laundry list, but the air has been let out of my sails after reading how poorly aquatic plants take up nitrate.
That terrarium-thing looks pretty cool. I guess if you got a nice tall tank you could make quite a setup, and have some nice crabs and frogs.
I'll definitely let you know when I'm ready for the adding the refugium to the 125. I'm going to get it set up first and then add it afterwards. How do people typically plumb the sump/refugium, run a siphon tube from the main tank to the refugium and then use a pump to return it? Would I be able to return the water with my filter? It seems to me that you would need absolutely perfectly aligned flow rates each way to make it work, which seems to be an almost impossible task, or you would either flood the refugium or drain it dry eventually
Sat, 04/03/2010 - 11:22
#5
Usually you want to do an overflow to take the water down. That way it automatically goes the same speed as your sump (as long as it has enough capacity and doesn't get clogged). I think a siphon would be a nightmare to get calibrated and the flow rates will change over time. You can get in-tank overflows that use an overflow box that establishes a siphon from the box, or you can get the tank drilled and run the overflow in a corner or back of the tank.
Sat, 04/03/2010 - 11:54
#6
Thanks for the insight Samuel. Clearly I need to do some basic reading on this topic. My apologies for the basic questions.
As for drilling my tank, I'm wildly unexcited about that idea. I just moved from ABQ proper to Rio Rancho, and had my 38 gal crack en route because it had been drilled and patched (got a good deal on it), so I'd like to avoid the drilling at all costs....which may be impossible for what I want to do, unfortunately.
Sat, 04/03/2010 - 15:26
#7
Look at this article: http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-overflow/70.asp
The diagram shows basically what you're aiming for with an hang on the back overflow.
Sat, 04/03/2010 - 20:32
#8
This is the one I have on my 125: http://afishybusiness.com/FiltersRefugiums/Over_Flow_Boxes/Eshopps_Overf...
I got it for around $40 so I think with a little searching you could get a decent one. However, you would probably need an external pump to go along with it. You could use your canister as additional filtration if necessary.
Like Samuel said, the pump will drive the overflow so there is nothing to sync up or anything. The pump will push the water and most if not all overflows will keep up with the flow. Then this will go back into your sump/refugium. This may all seem complicated but it really isn't. The siphon overflow box diagram Samuel linked to provides the physics behind how these work and why they will not floor your room when the power goes out. One thing that is really nice about sumps is the constant water level. The water level in your sump goes down, but remains the same in the aquarium. You also have the extra benefit of being able to move all your equipment (heaters, probes, etc.) down to the sump.
Anyway, keep your questions coming!
Sat, 04/03/2010 - 21:13
#9
Thanks so much guys. The diagram was helpful Samuel, and I will definitely consider ordering one of those units noob if you have had a good experience with it. I think the hang on is a much better option than drilling the tank. So, do you guys feel that a 15 or 20 gal extra tall tank would make a nice refugium?
If you guys don't mind, what kind of set-ups are you running (tank size, refugium size, pump size, plants or other media/critters in your external filter/refugium)?
Thanks again,
Greg
Sun, 04/04/2010 - 10:21
#10
If you click on my username you can see my current tank setups (thanks for remind me that I needed to update it).
On my glass 55 I am using a 20 gallon high for a sump and l love it...however I wish there was more room under the stand. For the 125 I am running two acrylic sumps because they came with various purchases. BTW I am a hoarder of fish and aquarium supplies. Ask Samuel
On my 125 I have that eShopps overflow feeding the two sumps which are connected together with 1.5" PVC. My return pump is this pump Little Giant 3-MDQX-SC. That feeds a CO2 reactor as well and returns through 1" PVC and flex tubing back to the tank.
For the glass 55 I have Hurricane Overflow (not in business anymore) feeding my 20 gallon high with a three drawer office filing cabinet over a trash can with pot scrubbers. If you take a look at this design on the Cichlid Forum DIY Wet/Dry Filter to get an idea. I have a Danner MAG 9.5 as the return pump on this one. I would not suggest these pumps as they are very noisy. This tank is also injected with CO2.
Both of these tanks, especially the glass 55 is experiencing a huge Alage (cyanobacteria to be exact) outbrreak right now that I am trying to control. My overall interest in these tanks has waned in recent months so I do not have any good pictures right now.
In my acrylic I am running an Eheim Pro II canister along with the undergravel filter that was there before. I am wanting to convert it as soon as I finish up a few other projects around the house.
Let me know if you have any other questions, I would be glad to help.
Sun, 04/04/2010 - 10:51
#11
Thanks for the tank descriptions and the links. I'm starting to get an idea of what I would like to do and what will be needed.
Perhaps since I already have fairly nice canister filters for my tanks I should start with baby steps, and just do the planted refugium first. I think I may have asked Samuel this question, my apologies if I have, but would I be able to use my canister as the return pump from the refugium. I liked that overflow you showed me, so if I can use my canister, I would just need to purchase the overflow, some sand, and plants to get started. Unfortunately I measured my 20 high last night and it won't fit under the 125 stand - the 15 probably will but it would be tight...especially with a light on top. Am I correct in assuming that height is better than length for the refugium?
Eventually I would like to do the wet/dry filter, just because it would be fun to do and I could really super-size my filtering capabilities..
What do you think is causing your cyano outbreak...especially with plants, CO2, and lighting? This sort of concerns me since I haven't had an algae outbreak in years, and I don't want to create more problems that I solve.
Sun, 04/04/2010 - 18:13
#12
The Cyanobacteria is due to decomposing plants and me not vacuuming the gravel; poor maintenance basically. Also lack of flow of water due to plant mass. As the plants grow in they block the ability for the water to circulate throughout the tank and create dead spots. I have had this issue before and have vacuumed the gravel, cleared up the plants, and everything was better again. I did that this weekend so hopefully all should be well within a few days.
Regarding the canister question, I am not 100% positive you can use your canister as a return pump. At first I would think it would be fine but I am worried about the the siphon. So here is the issue with sumps as opposed to canisters. Canisters work on a pure siphon and are sealed, there cannot be any air so you have to bleed it out using a priming mechanism. When the power goes out the siphon is maintained because there is no air, however the canister does not overflow from any backflow of water because it is sealed.
Now we get into sumps. The overflow fills the sump and it has an overflow "box" that is inside your tank (normally has teeth cut into it). When the power goes out/pump is shut off, the water level drops and once it gets to the lowest part of the inlet "teeth" of the overflow, it stops the flow of water into the sump. However, your return pump outlet may still be underwater and will siphon water out of the tank into the sump as well. You can put in a check-valve so water does not run backwards into the sump, but these can fail. Alternately you can drill a small hole in your return nozzle/spraybar/outlet so when the water level drops it starts to suck air instead of water, therefore breaking the siphon. It is called a siphon break, go figure .
So the issue I see is with the canister returning into your tank that is 4-5 feet up, and your inlet is in your sump at the bottom of the stand, when the power goes off it would back flow into your sump and basically drain your tank until the spraybar/outlet was above the water line. One fix is to put the outlet high up in the water line, however, if it starts to pull too much air you could lose your prime on your canister and then it would not restart without manual intervention. One way you could get a flooded room, the other is no filtration and possibly a burned out pump in your canister.
Given what I just outlined, I do not think using a canister as a return would be a great idea. Now you could always get a small overflow and pump to start off with to circulate the water through your refugium because you are not going for turn over here, and in thinking about it, a longer "dwell time" for the water in the sump would be better to get more of the excess nutrients to into the plants. You do not need a huge pump for this task, something that will pump 3-400 GPH at 5' of head pressure (or less) would probably work and you could get a much smaller overflow. Then when you want to go big, put that little setup on your smaller tanks and then get bigger. (insert plea that you do not tell your significant other that I am giving you these ideas for fear of getting my you know what kicked )
Regarding your question on the "long" vs. "tall" sump; it is a matter of what fits. I like tall sump on a 4' tank because the stand is not that big. However, if you have a short stand, a long would be great. A 20 long would definitely fit the bill here in your 125 because of its shorter overall height. One word of caution, do NOT make it a tight fit thinking it will "be OK". There is NOTHING worse that trying to contort your body under the stand and not have enough room. Speaking from experience on this one.
Hope this helps a bit and does not confuse the issue more. For now I would do a Google search on "Canister filter as sump return" and see what you find. I have not looked personally, but it might be worth a look. I would not do it, but its not my tank and I know next to nothing about canisters.
Sun, 04/04/2010 - 21:38
#13
Yeah, I found when I tried to do plants before there was a lot of rotting going on, probably due to insufficient light. Glad to hear your cyanobacteria are now under control.
Thanks for the explanation of the sump system. Right now my canister has to go up 5', and I have to say, it's an immense pain in the butt to prime. I Googled the phrase you suggested and read some posts about it. Honestly, your explanation of potential pitfalls was the most detailed answer I read. Everyone seemed to waffle on its workability, but it seems most are not using the canister to pump the water back into the aquarium. I would definitely rather be on the safe, rather than the sorry side. Although you said the physics of the overflow/sump were not that complicated, it does seem like there are some important caveats to keep from turning one's living room into a swimming pool
What I may do about the 125 refugium is find one of the big plastic bins at Walmart to act as a refugium, then I can drill and cut to my heart's delight, and use the 15 and 20 talls for my other two tanks and just leave them next to the tank. Which brings me to one of your very-valid points: the significant other. Yes, she has drawn the limit at 3 tanks in the house...unfortunately she failed to specify the s i z e of those three tanks. Her mistake .
You seem to have a good handle on plants, and I've read a few posts about bubblers reducing the available CO2 in the tank for the plants. Since having a filter fail one time, and almost losing all my fish, I have become a big fan of having bubblers in the tank. Do you feel there is a realistic and palpable reduction in CO2 for a bubbled tank not supplemented with CO2, or do you think this is mostly theoretical? Maybe it's easier if I ask if there was a noticeable difference when you installed your CO2 system... There is a lot of talk about macroalgae for the salt refugiums, but not much for the freshwater. I wonder if there are freshwater species that would do the nitrate-reducing job?
greg
Sun, 04/04/2010 - 22:30
#14
The thing is, your canister isn't pushing water up 5 feet. If you let the siphon fill it naturally, the water will completely fill the canister and the outgoing tube up to the surface of the water. So really the canister is only pushing the few inches up over the edge if you can picture it. There is a huge difference between the little impeller in a canister that is just rotating the water, and a pump that will actually lift the water 5 feet.
Sun, 04/04/2010 - 23:03
#15
That's a great point Samuel, and one I hadn't thought of. It puts things in better perspective - I'll spring for a pump too. So, until I make the jump to building my own filter, better to use the canister to filter directly to/from the tank, or to/from the refugium? I'm thinking tank, but I could be wrong...
greg
Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:00
#16
Greg, I would use it in your tank as it will help to provide additional current. This seems to always be of benefit.
Regarding the addition of CO2 and the use of airstones/bubblers, it is shown that increasing the surface agitation of the water (however you may do it) causes what is called "out gassing" of CO2. There were a couple of tests that used scientific probes that measure the CO2 content in the water, and still more unscientific tests that showed similar results. With injection of CO2 you are trying to keep a constant concentration of close to 20-30 ppm. I use pH meters to accomplish this. As the CO2 is dissolved in the water, it creates carbonic acid which lowers the pH. The level of Carbonate Hardness or kH will help to buffer any crashes. Our water here has a kH of around 4-6 depending on where you are. At 4 degrees kH, a pH of 6.6 will give you 30 ppm. I set mine around 7 and have around 4 kH water. When I had a lot of surface disturbance and before I sealed my sumps with Glad Cling Wrap, I was refilling my CO2 almost monthly. Since I did that and reduced the surface disturbance, I am at almost two months between fillings for both of my larger tanks.
You asked about a difference with adding CO2. There is a huge difference. I can grow the same plant two or three times faster with CO2, high-light (I have close to 220 watts of light over my 55 for 5 hours a day), and fertilizer. My sword plants grow gigantic as does everything else. The downside? Everything grows faster. My tank is a short 55 so the full height does not allow the plants to really breathe. It also forces me to prune weekly. My lower light tanks I prune once a month, have less algae problems, and look great. However, they do not hold a candle to a fully working higher tech tank. I am slowly getting back to that and with my new 90 gallon, I hope to lick a lot of these issues I have with my 55.
Anyway, sorry to drone on and on. I could talk for hours on this stuff.
Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:45
#17
Thanks for all the info. The more, the better, so drone on. So, should I assume that at a certain density of plants, bubblers become redundant because the plants are putting out enough O2 for the fish? How does the added CO2 effect the fish, or is it compensated for by the O2 from the plants? I'd be interested in what the dissolved CO2 ppm is of still water, agitated water, and CO2-injected water. I guess what I'm asking his, how much bang for your buck are you getting with CO2 injection e.g., if agitated water is at 20 ppm, it might not be worth the expense and hassle, but if it's 5ppm I can see the advantage. I will most likely not go the injected route, but I'm interested in the science and chemistry of it so I know where I stand if something is not working. Also, I can see that system working well for my severums who are happiest around 5.5 or 6.0 (I keep them at 6.5 for the benefit of some of their tankmates), but when you start talking about a 7.5 tank or brackish tank around 8.0, I could see the dissolved CO2 becoming a pH nightmare...
Today I picked up some Anarchis and two moss balls from PetSmart, so I'm seeing how them will do. I have them in my floating breeders so they are close to the light source (and away from the Pleco) and running the lights from 9am to midnight.
Tue, 04/06/2010 - 20:08
#18
A few things regarding pH and CO2. Take a look at this link, http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm, and also the rest of his page regarding CO2. His site is older, but is probably some of the de facto information out there regarding planted tanks. Just by adding CO2 is not going to make your South American Cichlids any happier because of total dissolved solids. Most water has less than 5 ppm of CO2, but has a high pH because of other acids in the water. In South America, tanic acid from decomposing plant matter in addition to very low amounts of dissolved solids lead to very low pH levels. Our water in ABQ (by the way, head over to http://www.abcwua.org/content/view/447/716/ and scroll to the bottom to see the water quality report for your area) is more in line with a pH of 7.8 or more and a very high amount of carbonates. Adding CO2 to this mix will bring down your pH but the dissolved solids are still there and will still not be the "best" for South American fish. RO water is the only true way to bring this down, and even then, it requires more acid in the form of peat or other materials to bring it down more.
Again, remember that most water has very little CO2 and injecting it benefits the plants and stimulates their growth. You will then have to substitute nutrients and that is when the fun begins. Also in your posts you mentioned DIY CO2 with yeast, sugar, and water. Do not bother. I used it for a year and never was able to achieve stable results. Get a 5 lb bottle and a regulator, it is more money in the beginning, but a much happier tank in the end. As an aside, plants respire at night so they actually give off CO2 at night when there are no lights.
I have never understood the use of bubblers for items other than uplift tubes or as a decoration. They do not "add" oxygen to the water. The water agitation at the surface is what allows for more oxygen. Most species that require "highly oxygenated water" are found in fast moving streams or areas where the water surface is constantly in motion. Sorry, got off on a tangent.
Ok, now onto the lights. Keeping your lights on for 15 hours a day will not help. The same amount of light for longer will not give the plants anything more. How much and what kind of light do you have over your tank now? You do not need a lot of light. I find that about 1 watt per gallon of "good" light can do the trick to grow things very nicely. When I say "good" light I mean light that is evenly dispersed over the whole tank. A 100 watt incandescent bulb over a 100 gallon tank is 1 watt per gallon but is not dispersed and is not what I consider "good" light. Start off small with your plants. Anacharis grows well in just about anything, just remember it requires rooting to ensure it stays down. Do not know how well your cihclids will play with that but yours could be different from mine.
Anyway, hope the links and the explanation help.
Greg, I know many individuals in the planted tank world that dose nitrogen into their tanks for their plants. However, I believe, that the nitrates we are talking about are not 100% usable by the plants and therefore you cannot really get to zero. I have heard tale of "denitrators" that will remove many nitrates, but I have never used them.
Personally, I would go with floating plants as they have a high uptake for the excess nutrients in the tanks. They also shield the fish from light as well and normally do not require the addition of fertilizers. With planted tanks it is always about finding a balance between light and nutrients...this includes CO2. Adding plants to a lower light tank can sometimes lead to slow growth, outbreaks of algae (decomposing plants) and more debris as the plants die off.
Going back to the original question for a refugium, I would think that a 20 gallon tank would be a great one. Is it a long or a tall? What you could do is run an overflow through this tank and use a light (does not have to be pretty if it is under the tank) to grow plants. I have also seen people use similar setups to grow algae for the single purpose of using it as a filter. Salt water folk use this a lot as well. Take a look at these: http://www.3reef.com/forums/i-made/mega-powerful-nitrate-phosphate-remov... and http://www.3reef.com/forums/filters-pumps-etc/algae-scrubber-vs-wet-dry-.... Because it is out of sight, you can really do a lot more. One thing about creating something like this will be the plumbing, lighting, etc. I have been using sumps for quite a while and the plumbing is not really difficult. As far as the lighting, that is pretty easy as well. In the links above you can see people using those clip on lights from the hardware store. Couple those with some CFL flood lights and you are good to go; again, nothing fancy is needed.
Now alternately, you could go with a hang on back, or external refugium and put house plants in it. Take a look at this and you can get an idea of what I am talking about: http://waterroots.com/mysystemexplained.htm. This shows the use of fired clay substrate and then having water in that. Well why couldn't you pass your aquarium water through that and plant house plants in it? Strange idea I know, but something I have seen done with some great results. The house plants love the aquarium water.
Now one other note, regarding reducing the number of water changes because your nitrates are lower. I do not necessarily agree with that. As your water sits in the aquarium, the total dissolved solids increases as well which changes your water parameters. If you refill due to evaporation (we all do because of living in the desert) then the minerals in the water also start to effect the kH, GH, and pH as well. Water changes are much much more than just the removal of nitrates. You sound very knowledgeable about aquariums and do not mean to seem too elementary, but I just want to throw that out there.
Anyway, I think you have a lot of options out there and it is just a matter of what you want. Choose wisely and I am sure we will all help in any way we can.